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Paid 6 times monthly of Rm1K to the Bank's DC. Now the bank claims that there is no payment from me. Please help.

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asked on Jun 5, 2021 at 13:07
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Dear Readers
Please take note that the id of the poster and certain critical personal data will be hushed up as this case is not fully over as yet. There are more to come (issues).

I shall name this Questioner as Josh78

-----------------------------------------

@ Josh78

I have decided to transfer your private query to this forum as it is of public interests as it would highlight the unethical practices of DCs (Debt Collectors). It would help others (readers here) who would not fall into the same unethical trap set by DCs. By doing so, any "compensation" regarding charges from me to U, will be waived, but you can always send me a big Birthday Gift Hamper (in 2 months time) pending closure of your predicament.
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answered on Jun 5, 2021 at 14:48
by  
edited Jun 5, 2021 at 15:03
by   jeff005
@ Josh78

Case Facts :

1.  Defaulter have gone overseas to work for more than 6 years, came back early last year (case similar as @ Wai Wai).

2.  The Bank DCs found the debtor more than 9 months ago, debtor have paid 6 K direct to the accts of the DCs.

3.  Because of no receipts issued for payments, debtor went direct to bank for verifications. Answer from the bank is that records indicates balances of 8K++ with no repayments at all for the past years and the debt was "sold" to a DCs, but the debtor can still pay direct to the "bank" now.

[My bone of contention is that "was it really sold?" If have sold by legal means, the bank can no longer collect by the application of laws].

4.  The debt recorded in the bank's records is RM8K++, but the DCs is demanding 14++. But have made 2 "Discounts Offers" which contradicts the value of any "offers". On top of that, the 1st payment of 1 K does not "count" as it was paid (days earlier) before the actual offer letter was issued (what the xxxx ..!!).  Initial verbal offer does not "count".. blood sucking vampire mosquitoes?

Misgivings / Flaws of the case

5.  There is no letters of authorization / notification from the bank that this credit card debt was "sold" or the DCs has the authorization to act on behalf of the bank. I have receive 18 pics from the debtor, but no such indications was presented to me.

6.  Debtor has requested for payment receipts with no reply from the DCs.

7.  Debtor have made 6 payments via CDM as well as "online transfer" (very beeg beeg mistake). Now the DCs knows of the existence of debtor's other banking accts (it is immaterial whether "his" or "hers"). However, keep digital records of all payments as it can be used as evidences in the event of future debts lawsuits (if any). Never lose these payment receipts / online records. Things can come back to haunt you even after 20 years.. !!

Offer Letter :
It has always stated "tanpa prejudis" and the validity period expires the moment the debtor is late even on one monthly repayment (the debtor is always late.. !!). It is also states that the DCs reserves the rights to rescind the offer and the rights to file lawsuit based on the "FULL Debt" once there are any late and/or defaulted payments. (worse than banks laywers.. right?).

Interests and default payments charges are also added monthly.. !!
(Wow, BNM now allows DCs to be legal moneylenders? And the Financial License to collect interests?)

Stay tuned.. more to come

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answered on Jun 5, 2021 at 16:19
by  
Josh78

For References :

@Josh78 vs @remymikael vs @Vince Sum vs @WaiWai

@Josh78 and @remymikael, both case would share similar views on how to deal with DCs harassments and intimidations. My personal advise is to read and read again on Dr Haris case. Under the methods applied by Dr Haris. Both these two cases started on zero ground base. The mental block on when the actual defaults (dates and amounts) started is very common. It has also happened to me.

Josh.. you have to start reading backwards for the past 1 year and understand everything that I have posted in this forum. If you do not fully understand, please ask me (no charges). You are the best person to clear doubts and make changes to your future life. All these "bad debts" will and can come back to haunt you in the near future. Learn on your own is the best teacher (with help from forumers here). Only yourself know your own strength, weakness, circumstances. You only need guidance on the laws affecting you and how to deal with Debts Collectors (there is no school books to refer to).

Your have to start on ground zero like what @remymikael has done. Follow all the steps in that thread's post/s. There is no short-cut, unless you pay in FULL all the expired debts.

You need to know what is
1/  Judgement Debtor
2/  Judgement Creditor
3/  What is Judgment Debt in the eyes of the laws
4/  How bankruptcy can affect you
5/  What is a Vesting Order (Bad Debts sold by the banks)
6/  How is a Judgment Debt  treated in the event of Bankruptcy Lawsuit. 
7/  What is Limitation Act 2018 and Insolvency Act 2017.

Do note that you may have another 3 other bank debts, one of which would definitely cross over the threshold of 50K once the COVID BILL Moratorium is over in another 1.5 years.  (unless extended or revised).

I treat all personal debts as "package". There is no point in addressing the current issues and years later the other problems may surface. Pro-active actions taken now will or may reduce any negative impact in the future. I may not be around anytime due to this Covid Pandemic or maybe gone back to Peking to sell salted duck eggs.

As far as my personal opinion goes, @Josh (6K), @Vince Sum (4K) and @WaiWai (15K), the amount paid is quite wasted because of lack of knowledge of debts litigation and application of laws pertaining their respective cases, situation and circumstances. The onus is for readers reading or reaching out to this forum to educate oneself so as to know where you stand, instead of groping aimlessly in a sewage tank full of tahi spewed out by DCs. 

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answered on Jun 5, 2021 at 16:46
by  
Josh78

These are my initial findings of your case as above :

1.  You can never trace records of the above creditor in BN CCRIS as it is not a bank. But I need your CCRIS to identify your other bank debts.

2.  I need CTOS records on what type of blacklistings levied on you by banks as well as their DCs. YES.. DCs can blacklist a debtor in CTOS.. !! You can register online and get statements from BN as well as CTOS. For CTOS, go for full "disclosure" pay only xx (how much Doc??..). CTOS will PDF their statement/s to you. You channel it to me later.

3.  Your current creditor is not a bank credit card issuer but a Financial Credit Services card issuer (same as in the past; Amex, Diners, Mastercard, Visa, MBF Mastercard..  etc etc.). Thailand have more such card issuers.

4.  You need to know from Courts Records extraction to know whether you have been made a Judgement Debtor before by any creditors (esp banks). If there isn't any lawsuit in 2012 - 2021, then you can have a piece of your mind back.
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answered on Jun 5, 2021 at 22:13
by  
edited Jun 5, 2021 at 22:45
by   jeff005
@ Josh78

Replying to your Qs asked in your email to me.. Quote :

What I would like to know is, since I have already paid, and after I found out that none of the money I paid went to repay my debt with the FCS, how should I move forward from now? I asked them for a discount to let me pay lesser and they said if I can pay another xxxx before June, then I won’t have to pay anymore and after 7 days, get a release letter from them. 

The above, is it a verbal or written "offer" again? 
This DCs have changed "offers" twice before, can this time be trusted?.
And it is already June now and you have not paid yet right?
Will the DCs rescind the above offer again and issue new threats, new offers?

It is very subjective based on many factors like :
 
1.  are they the legitimate BCs of the FCS (appointments of DCs changes every 6 months).

2.  Was there any such proof shown or given to the debtor or even expressed when the DCs first contacted the debtor. Even a policeman can be verified with the uniform, badge number and their pistol, arrived in a police vehicle, etc etc.. Verbal confirmation from the creditor is not acceptable. What if next time another DCs turns up for the "any balance"? Pay them? Pay every tom dick and khairy that threatens and intimidate debtors with their naked muscles?

3.  depends on your financial resources now and of course your total bad debts portfolio. If one DCs can find you, the others oso can. And it can be the same DCs working for the other bank/s. This world is very small.. !! Only you yourself can make your very own personal choice on your next course of action on how to deal with the current DCs based on knowledge gained now from this forum.

-------------------------------

There is something I did not write before here in this forum although I knew about it 6 years ago based on my own High Court Lawsuit (not debts). Unless there are current amendments, the caveat stands.

Did you people know that WhatsApp msgs cannot be accepted in a court of law (if they are objections from either party) as the contents can be doctored and changed. It is only accepted when msgs are extracted from 3rd Party backup applications. WhatsApp have declared this in their T&C of the usage of their facilities.

In short, any offers of discounts should be in B&W and issued via official company letter head and signed by a senior Manager and send to the debtor.

Sample, like this joint notification of bad debts sold via a Vesting Order sent to the debtors last registered address with the bank and/or "other creditors".



Eyes very tired now. Will write the next chapter on whether you can be sued successfully for this FCS old debts... tomorrow.. Godnite..
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answered on Jun 6, 2021 at 12:02
by  
Hi Josh78

Hope you're in good health. 

Addressing your issue for guidance and advice from  Mr Jeff is the correct thing to do. He has advised me for the issue which I had and how to appropriately handle it which I am very clear now. I have full confidence that the same outcome will go to you as well.  As Mr Jeff adviced,  you still  need to do some homework  as what mentioned in Mr Jeff post so that you also can have a clear idea and importantly valuable knowledge of the situation that your in now so that you can handle your issue even better. 

Important documents esp your CCRIS report can be obtained online from BNM online platform at no cost (eccris) . You just need to register by filling up it's application form. 

Your CTOS report can be obtained online  by paying a small amount of fees  (rm 28) as well. 

Hope the best to you Josh78. 
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answered on Jun 6, 2021 at 22:49
by  
edited Jun 7, 2021 at 00:37
by   jeff005
Josh78

Q - Can Josh78 be sued for "The Debt" in a Court of Law given the fact that the debt occurred more than 6 years ago which have already exceed the 6 years Limitation Period.

Note : This opinion is based on face value on the above case ONLY. Do not apply it to other cases.

My personal perspective is YES.. the creditor (FCS) can initiate a lawsuit.

Two main conditions which would voided the protection (Limitation Act) accorded to the debtor (this case).
1.  Admission to the debt
2.  Have made payments

Debtors must understand that when an offer letter has been given, the "book value" would have been stated within and a discount value would be included. In the event the debtor could not fulfill all the commitments as stated in the offer letter, the creditor reserved the right to file for the Full Debt (according to their book value).

An offer letter is actually a New Contract / Agreement signed between the Creditor and the Debtor. The 1st payment made actually executes the newly signed contract. 

In the above case of Josh78,  even though a lawsuit is initiated by the FCS company at this stage, provided he is reachable with a Writ of Summons, the lawsuit can be set aside by the application of the 6 years Limitation Act because, by my interpretation of Litigation Procedures / Processes, the admission and payment is made to a third party, payments made into a third party banking account. Moreover, the offer letter is not direct from the creditor of which the creditor can deny / repudiate. The creditor (FCS) can start a lawsuit, but will be unsuccessful provided the debtor attend the court proceedings and plead / invoke protection from the Limitation Act 2018. His pleadings would then be able to set aside the lawsuit.

Note :  There are flaws / mistakes committed by the creditor, the DCs and the debtor.

References : The Limitation Act 2018

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answered on Jun 7, 2021 at 12:20
by  
edited Jun 7, 2021 at 12:28
by   jeff005
Personally I trust that I have made my personal views / opinions on this above case of @ Josh78.

Now I would attempt to go into exposure mode and possibly termination of this Query..

I would now  let the cat out of the bag, spill out the beans to the floor here and you ALL made your personal judgement as to what is your next course of action if you do find yourself in similar situation.

Yes, it is an  aiQon case, now it is Aiqon Ikhlas Sdn Bhd case. The creditor is AEON CREDIT (non-bank card issuer).

The bone of contention (perhaps mine only) is this "master" wasap msg.



I invite those who had "dealings" with DCs before to give their comments on the above pic. Your comments is much appreciated as i would then know how much you have learnt from this Lawyerment Forum Website on How To Deal with Debts Collectors.

Before you comment, please take note of the following :
1. This is a wasap msg (can be faked by the sender or "copy and paste" too).
2. It may not be representative of the real AEON CREDIT
3. It may not be direct from Aigon Ikhlas, but a DCs appointed by Aigon, the only circumstantial evidence is aigon MBB banking acct.
4. It is very common for bigger DCs to "sublet", subcontract to smaller (perhaps individual DCs).

Do keep an open mind with your comments and assessment of the above case and wasap message.

The comments should incorporate what are the flaws in the msg and what are the legal implications on the sender as well as the debtor. Do make constructive comments that would help 100s Thousands of other debtors down the road.

Starting with oldmantam, Dr Haris?

Cheers..
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answered on Jun 7, 2021 at 13:20
by  
Further notes

1.  Debt arising in 2012/13 (cannot remember)
2.  AEON book value RM6+++K
3.  Aigon Ikhlas "book value" RM12K

I do find the book value of AEON is consistent with current industry practice based on a credit line of 2K, as they can only collect interests for only 6 years upon default (even book value this can be contested in court in the event of a lawsuit).
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answered on Jun 7, 2021 at 14:02
by  
edited Jun 7, 2021 at 14:35
by   Oldalantam
Hi 

The amount of offer is a lump sum amount . If debtor wish to pay by installment than the offer letter should break down into months example Jan - RM 1k , Feb - 1k , mar - 1k etc . 
The issue here is did the Debtor communicate with DC on how he want to pay his debt ? 

If you are not ready to pay or you are not confidence with their proposal , don't even pay 1 cent to them to admit the debt . Once you pay mean u admit and agreed the debt and condition than more issue will be surface .

Always remember , if you ready to pay , get a proper proposal from them than only start . Once get your proposal , confirm with their HQ and also the bank ( which you have defaulted ) than only start to pay . If not , Don't pay anything . 

Remember that DC only want you to pay so that they can get their commission . So they will do ANYTHING to scare  you to pay . The more you pay the more thier commission . Only if they take legal action against you than you can stand a chance to set it aside with act . 
When dealing with debt buyer , you have to very alert and all arrangements must be in black and white . Don't do anything with only verbal or whatapps . And also any emails between both side do cc to BNM . 

Josh , 

Do tell us what and how you have discussed with the DC and they send you the letter . How much you have paid and do you keep all the slips ? 
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answered on Jun 7, 2021 at 18:05
by  
edited Jun 7, 2021 at 20:14
by   Tanavaroot
Wow.. another interesting case..

Here is / are my comments :

In the minds of :

1. The Creditor - WTH (What's the Hell) is going behind my back?

2. The DCs  -  We found another sucker victim who is ignorant of laws.

3. The Debtor -  WTH/F.. have I been a scammed victim?

-------------------------------------

I wish to draw attention to the logo displayed on the wasap msg.

The Judge's Mallet

After handing the Judgement (Decree) of a lawsuit, the Judge would hammer down the mallet, signifying the conclusion of any lawsuit.

In Thailand, it is an Criminal Offense to use this type of logo by private and commercial enterprises. The usage means that the entity has the power of the courts and what has been posted / declared have been sanctioned by the Courts.

For Thai private enterprises, abusing this logo amounts to intimidation / harassment / legal misrepresentation to debtor(s). The debtor, then can claimed that he has been blackmailed into any admission of the debt (if any) in the event of any lawsuit. The power of persuasion and perception is beyond layman's / lawman's comprehension.

Other issues :

4.  This "offer letter" is actually a new contract. It must be in hard copy and must be signed by the highest Authority together with the debtor accepting the T&C. "No signature required" merely means that this document is useless in court lawsuit. No signature merely represents it is only a notification of no legal commitment between the two parties.

5.  Only Legal Financial Institutions are allowed to levy "financial charges". The above case is regarding Bill Collectors and the payments is banked into an account not operated by the Actual Creditor. In the event of disputes with the Creditor, the above wasap msg is USELESS  for the purpose of admission to the debt, by the operation of Malaysian Laws. The debtor have no legal recourse to the moneys paid.

Remember the implications of the Limitation Act :

It only exists between the original Creditor and the Debtor ONLY.
Do not change laws interpretation to your personal and private advantage.. !!

6.  "Calculated from the first day of default".  This DCs or Bad Debts Buyer is the provider of the loan or credit services? Got Permits to operate or not? Was there any legal contract signed between the Debtor and the BCs (or BDBs). It is better for them to keep their bladimouth shut and stop short-changing the innocent layman debtors.. !! Their actions lies on a thin red line of scam about to be committed.

Note that the above comments is based on this case of Josh78 only representing his situation, circumstances and period of default as per his declarations.
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