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What is a Vesting Order obtained by AIGON? Can I make a negotiated settlement (with discounts) for 8 year old Debt? Can the 6 years Limitation apply?

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asked on Sep 7, 2020 at 21:44
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edited on Sep 7, 2020 at 23:23
by   jeff005


Pic of a  VESTING ORDER  (Courtesy of @Keribang).

There are discussions under these threads :

1.  Ref :  https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13770/forewarning-cimb-selling-debts-to-debts-collector-aiqon?g=1#tab-top

2.  Ref :  https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13790/settlement-to-a-14-years-dept?g=1#tab-top

3.  Ref :  https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13839/receiving-calls-from-aiqon-capital-saying-i-owe-money

Readers may ask Qs in this thread..
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answered on Nov 30, 2020 at 08:58
by  
edited Nov 30, 2020 at 09:04
by   Wai Wai
Hi Jeff,

Would you mind to revisit this post and share your thoughts about the questions raised by Keribang?

Besides, I do have a question. 

XYZ last payment to CIMB was in mid 2014, and that was the last payment from XYZ.

Aigon bought the NPL from CIMB under vesting orders in the middle of the year.
 
My question: Is Aigon allowed to continue to charge XYZ interest? No statement has been issued to XYZ thus far, hence, unsure whether if there's any interest or whatsoever, except a letter of demand from Aigon's lawyer, which basically a warning to XYZ that failure to making a full payment of XYZ's obligation to Aigon will be resulting in a legal proceedings. Letter was dated in July.

Thank you for your time. 
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answered on Nov 30, 2020 at 10:31
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edited Nov 30, 2020 at 12:42
by   jeff005
@ Wai Wai

I avoid further comments in this thread as many issues are subjective to debates since the Limitation Act 2018 is too new for any case to have to been discussed in this forum or likewise, in other discussion groups.

Aigon bought the NPL from CIMB under vesting orders in the middle of the year.
Aigon did not  buy a NPL loan but bought a bad debt  that written off in the books  of the Bank (only).

Is Aigon allowed to continue to charge XYZ interest?
My personal view  is that under different circumstances it can be charged as a new creditor to the debt. But the debtor must sign to agree to the any new T&C. Failing which, settle in court lorr. I have asked Qs on whether the debtor have been made a Judgement Debtor  by the seller bank, but I have not receive any positive replies but only further Qs.

Read the T&C stated in the vesting order (the Perintah /Order). If there has been a Court accorded Judgement Debt  before, the bank have 6 years to accumulate interests from date of the the J.Debt.

"cause of action accrued" 
My interpretation is that it refers to any compensation (interests) too. If the debt is sold from the bank to a 3rd party based on their "book value", many other issues can be raised, challenged and contested in a new lawsuit.

Read the article on the "interests" element on debts that I have written in this Forum and try to understand it (if possible).

https://www.lawyerment.com/library/kb/Insolvency/Bankruptcy/1596.htm

# Wai Wai

Confused? Your head is spinning now? More Qs? No worries, mine is spinning too.



(to be continued)
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answered on Nov 30, 2020 at 13:00
by  
edited Nov 30, 2020 at 13:35
by   Wai Wai
Hi Jeff,

Many thanks for your response. 

FYI, XYZ has never been adjudged judgement debtor by either CIMB or Aigon to the current date.
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answered on Dec 23, 2020 at 23:44
by  
edited Dec 24, 2020 at 00:05
by   jeff005
It is X'mas 2020 and is time to lower down the curtains for this topic.
@ Wai Wai
@ Keribang
Helpmeplease
@ Oldalantam

This topic started 4 months ago and last discussed 1 month ago. I was hesitant to proceed further when I could not find the best solution. At last I believe that I may found an amicable solution as a X'mas present to you all.

To understand how I derived my opinion, you must read backwards on the following discussions with the Qs asked in this forum and from other sources.

https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13790/settlement-to-a-14-years-dept

https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13890/hire-purchase-social-guarantor-debt-collector-help

https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13892/how-to-know-you-are-judgement-debtor

https://www.lawyerment.com/answers/questions/13770/forewarning-cimb-selling-debts-to-debts-collector-aiqon?g=2#tab-top

It bores down to 3 main terms

1. Judgement Debtor
2. Judgement Debt
3. The "Rights" of a Creditor as well as a "Debtor"

Read the above threads first, then we continue...
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answered on Dec 24, 2020 at 16:30
by  
edited Dec 24, 2020 at 16:34
by   jeff005


Vesting Order Article 2.0, 2.1, 2.2

Common Qs  asked

1. Is AIGON now my creditor.
Ans : Yes, they are your creditor now via a Court Vesting Order no:xxxxxxxxxx

2. Can AIGON charge me interests on the purchased debt.
Ans : No, they cannot as the company is not registered as a financial institution that can take deposits, pay or charge interests on loans or debts.

3. Can AIGON bring me to court as a new creditor.
Ans : Yes they can (if they want to). The Vesting Order specify that all rights to the debt has been assigned to the Penerima of the Vesting Order.

4. Can AIGON bankrupt me.
Ans : Yes they can on the following conditions -
a) You have been made a Judgement Debtor before

b) This Judgement Debt have an expiry date of 12 years to initiate a bankruptcy proceeding under the Bankruptcy Act 2017. Those made Judgement Debtor before the new Limitation Act 2018, will have to follow the 12 years period. Those made Judgement Debtor after the implementation of the Limitation Act 2018 "should" follow the 15 years period. Changes could be made to amend the period stated in Bankruptcy Act very soon.

c) Accrued interests can still be claimed for 6 years (max) for the Judgement Debt from date of being made a Judgement Debtor.

d) The threshold limit is 50K for Bankruptcy (at this point of time).

5. What happens if I have not been made a Judgement Debtor before and AIGON start a lawsuit?
It would be the same as if the bank is suing you. The "Rights" /lien for this debt has been assigned (fully transferred) to AIGON under the Vesting Order.

6. Can I request for a statement of a/cs from AIGON regarding the bank debt?
They do not have as there is no requirement needed for the bank to supply the "penerima" of the Vesting Order. Read 2.1 of the Vesting Order. AIGON can issue you a interest free invoice (if required) based on their purchased price of this bad debt with no itemization /breakdown. Any payments to AIGON will be issued a receipt (for CASH). Payments via ATM machines, the printed deposit slip issued by the machine is the receipt. Any full (or negotiated with discount) settlement, a Release Letter will be issued (just like as in H/P and Leasing of Motor Vehicles /Machinery /Equipment).

(Caveat : The above comments is written by a Q&A registered User. It represents a personal point of view only and not be regarded as legal advice.)
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answered on Dec 25, 2020 at 11:37
by  
edited Dec 25, 2020 at 12:19
by   Wai Wai
Hi Jeff,

First of all, I wish you and your family good tidings for this festive season! Merry Christmas!

I can't thank you enough for updating this post as I found them to be packed with great information, especially the Q&A you provided. 

The uncertainty that troubling me for months is now been solved. Most importantly, to find out that Aigon is not allowed to charge interest based on Q&A (2) is such a big relief.

I can't help but noticed you stated d) The threshold limit is 50K for Bankruptcy (at this point of time) is inaccurate due to under the temporary measures for reducing the impact of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) Act 2020, it has now been increased to RM100,000.

Other than that, thank you once again for updating this post.

Wai Wai
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answered on Dec 25, 2020 at 12:26
by  
edited Dec 25, 2020 at 13:21
by   jeff005
@ Wai Wai

Many thanks for the correction to RM100,000.
This calls for another discussion on the COVID BILL which can be beneficial to many debtors. For some is given a temporary lease of life, for some, a bigger and deeper hole is dug for a much longer period. There are always pros and cons.

_____________________________

(Part 1)

Malaysia’s temporary measures under the COVID Bill

Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Datuk Takiyuddin Hassan said the relevant bill was passed in the Dewan Rakyat on Aug 25 and in the Dewan Negara on Sept 22.

"The gazetting follows the assent by the Yang di-Pertuan Agong and the Act would be enforced for two years," he said.

The COVID Bill shall generally remain in operation for two years  from the date of publication. However, the COVID Bill provides for specific periods of operation for the relevant Parts.

__________________

Part III – Limitation Act 1953

Part III (Modifications to the Limitation Act 1953), of the COVID Bill seeks to extend the limitation periods for bringing an action to 31 December 2020, if the expiry of the limitation periods (mentioned in section 6) falls between 18 March 2020 and 31 August 2020 (“Applicable Period”).  For example, section 6(1) of the Limitation Act provides that where a relevant cause of action has arisen six years or more from the date of when the cause of action arose, an action cannot be brought. Pursuant to the COVID Bill, if such expiry date falls within the Applicable Period, an action can still be brought up to 31 December 2020.

The period of operation for this Part is 18 March 2020 until 31 December 2020.

Part VII – Insolvency Act 1967

During the period of operation of this Part, i.e. from the date of publication of the COVID Bill up to 31 August 2021, a creditor shall not be entitled to present a bankruptcy petition against a debtor unless the amount of debt owing by the debtor to the petitioning creditor or creditors (if two or more creditors join in the petition), in aggregate is at least RM100,000. This is an increase from the current threshold of RM50,000.

This increased threshold similarly applies to a creditor seeking to proceed with bankruptcy proceedings against a debtor who has failed to comply with any of his obligations under a voluntary arrangement. In such a case, any creditor bound by the voluntary arrangement may only file or proceed with a bankruptcy petition against the debtor where the amount of debt owing by the debtor to the petitioning creditor, or if two or more creditors join in the petition (after deducting any amount already paid under the voluntary arrangement) is in aggregate at least RM100,000.

However, any proceedings, actions or other matters required to be done under the Insolvency Act 1967 which are still pending before the publication of the COVID Bill shall be dealt with under the Insolvency Act 1967 as if it had not been modified by the COVID Bill.
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answered on Dec 25, 2020 at 13:49
by  
edited Dec 25, 2020 at 13:55
by   Wai Wai
Thank you Jeff.

I believe this's a great news and a big relief to those people who have been troubled with the Vesting Orders with lots of question marks hanging over their heads with uncertainties about what're their rights.

Aigon has been agressively pestering people for money and I'm sure it has a negative impact on their everyday life. 

Tens of calls are being made by different numbers including overseas phone numbers to people on each and every business day and threatening messages such as legal action would be commenced and confirmation that people are being blacklisted in CCRIS under special attention.

Now we finally getting a better understanding of what Aigon can and cannot do.

Wai Wai
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answered on Dec 25, 2020 at 14:40
by  
edited Dec 25, 2020 at 14:43
by   jeff005
Wai Wai

Many thanks for your faith in my interpretation of laws surrounding this topic bearing in mind that I have caveated my comments as i,m not in the legal services.

getting a better understanding of what Aigon can and cannot do.
Rather it is creating awareness of your own "rights" as a debtor of which what you can do in the event of a "belated lawsuit" for any types financial lawsuit not only from AIGON or from the latest BEYONCE..

Ever notice I have always use the term AIGON?
The entity i,m referring to is "Am I GONe"?
Nope, i,m not creating a parody of terms..
Please do not sue me..



..
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answered on Dec 25, 2020 at 17:28
by  
Hi Jeff,

Yes, I'm fully understood about the caveat.

I've no doubt that many people would find this post to be extremely helpful and benefited by the ongoing discussions.

Wai Wai
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