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Rights for Grandparents who have given care to a child for 6 years since her infancy

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asked on Dec 21, 2017 at 17:01
by   xpkoalz
edited on Dec 21, 2017 at 17:02
by   xpkoalz
I am writing in to seek advice and resolution on the following situation.

Grandpa's (Malaysian)  biological daughter (from his ex-wife, Malaysian) has some marital issues,
so she left her 3 month old daughter in his care.

Grandpa works in Singapore, and is staying with Grandma (his wife, Singaporean).
They both took care of the child for 6 years in Singapore.
The child (Malaysian) started pre-school, K1 and K2 in Singapore.
The child's father passed away in Aug 2017
The child's mother (biological daughter of Grandpa) wants her back in Malaysia.
Grandpa and Grandma brings child back to the mother in Malaysia.
The mother now expects Grandpa and Grandma to pay tuition for all her 4 kids.
Grandpa and Grandma can't afford.
The mother now wants to cut off the child's connection with Grandpa and Grandma.

All-in-all the situation seems bleak, if all mediation fails. This could mean we can no longer see this child anymore, it will be devastating for both the child and the grandparents.

Am writing in to ask for some legal advice.

1. Does the grandparents have any legal standing to ask for visitation rights?
2. Can the grandparents fight for custody of the child since she has been in their care for 6 years?
   Reason being
   a. the child wants to go back to Singapore with her Grandma,
   b. the mother's jealousy in seeing the child's affection with the grandparents - her attempts to stop the  
       child from getting close to them - only shows that she is not psychologically whole.
3. I know chances are slim, have written letters to law firms in Malaysia seeking advice, but got no
   response. I have no idea where I should seek help from - Singapore or Malaysia?

It causes us pain and distress, that the mother has blatantly deny us of access to the child, physically and emotionally - after 6 years of loving and caring for her. An action which I find to be inhumane and cruel, devastating to the child and the grandparents.

Please, I seek justice and a fair resolution to this. I need advice and as much assistance as possible. Thank you.
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10 Answers

answered on Dec 21, 2017 at 18:14
by   vkpc
What is your relationship with the Grandfather and Grandmother?

They both took care of the child for 6 years in Singapore.
The child (Malaysian) started pre-school, K1 and K2 in Singapore.

How come the grandparents can afford to pay for the tuition when in Singapore?

Why can't the grandparents visit their grandchild during the weekends and holidays?
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answered on Dec 21, 2017 at 18:27
by   jeff005
edited Dec 21, 2017 at 18:35
by   jeff005
Personal views (non legal) for discussion  ONLY

1.  Biological Father want to fight for custody of the child of his own daughter? At the demise of one parent, all/any children will go to the surviving parent.

2.  The mother now wants to cut off the child's connection with Grandpa and Grandma. 
Natural, family ties and values are not longer there. Father not supporting her at her times of needs during marital issues. Life is like that.

3.  This could mean we can no longer see this child anymore, it will be devastating for both the child and the grandparents.
What about the rights of the mother? The feelings of the biological mother?

4.  Does the grandparents have any legal standing to ask for visitation rights? 
What legal standing can you think of? The child is with her natural mother. The grandpa took care of this child based on love and compassion, did the child's mother pointed a gun at him or on herself to force the grandpa to care for the child?

5.  a. the child wants to go back to Singapore with her Grandma, 
She is too young to make legal decisions.

6.  only shows that she is not psychologically whole. 
Do not agree. All the 6 years with grandparents, it is natural to wish to live with the grandparents. She (mother) is more sane than her parents.

7.  It causes us pain and distress, that the mother has blatantly deny us of access to the child, physically and emotionally
It all bores down to family values, lack of cohesiveness,  MONEYS  is part of the root the problem here. How long can the child be with the grandparents? The child can be much longer with her mother for the rest of the mother's life.

8.  An action which I find to be inhumane and cruel, devastating to the child and the grandparents. 
It is not for any of us to judge, it is up to the child to judge when she reaches adulthood.

9.  Please, I seek justice
Justice is to give the child back to her biological mother.

10.   and a fair resolution to this
Fair solution is to give the child back to her biological mother.

11.  The mother now expects Grandpa and Grandma to pay tuition for all her 4 kids. 
Correct.. if want to help, help all the children, after all,  ALL  are the grandchildren. If cannot afford, just let go.. Being selective shows the narrowness of one's mind.
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answered on Dec 21, 2017 at 22:33
by   jeff005
edited Dec 21, 2017 at 22:39
by   jeff005
Piece of personal advise.

Keep in touch regularly to soften relationships. It is not easy for a single mother/widow to care for 4 children. If in the near future, she cannot care properly for all or any, and if there is any form of abuse or malnutrition, then discuss with her to send her child back to Singapore by  Legal Adoption  as  Guardians. If she refuses, and if there are physical signs of abuses, then only go to court in Malaysia to secure Guardianship.

Do be patient and give her a chance to prove herself

The other 3 children came from same father?
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 10:16
by   xpkoalz
edited Dec 23, 2017 at 11:01
by   xpkoalz
Thank you all for your input. There is some misunderstanding on your part regarding this case. 

1. We have return the child to her mother.
2. The mother wants to sever the child’s contact with the care-taker (grandparents).
3. The grandfather is working in Singapore and has been helping his daughter raise the child for 6 years.
4. The grandfather is my step-dad, I am considered the step-aunt, and I have also been helping (the mother) raise the child for 6 years.

5. If you think that we deserve to be cut off from the child after loving and caring for her for 6 years and we are insane to want her to be happy.
Please know that we are not the ones who are trying to force/ control the child's thinking and emotion here. The child is very much attach to us. A bond has already be form. 

6. Her mother has 3 other children from the same father, we helped her take care of this one. We have a Letter of Temporary Guardianship. 

We gave this child all the love we have, how is it that it is only now we have to pay tuition for all of her children? If that is the case, then why has the mother not sent all 4 of her children to Singapore to be taken care of? 

We have been playing our part explaining to the child that she needs to go back to her family. Problem is that the mother is causing much distress to the child and to us by forcing the child to stay away from us, to not hug and say she love us and not to even mention our names. 

How is that the action of a sound mind? 

5. We acknowledge the mother’s right to have her child back, but is devastated that she wants the child to be cut off from our lives. It hurts all parties. Hence, want to know 
 
- if we have any legal standing to ask for visitation rights, if the mother is so unreasonable. 
- if that fail, do we stand a chance to get custody of the child if after 6 months the child is unhappy and wants to return to us.

We understand that there is a lot of psychological issues to consider for the mother and especially that child, and we are trying to make peace with the mother. 

In our minds, the ideal situation would be the child living happily with her family, and we get to visit her regularly and take her out for trips during school holidays. But even that the mother disapproves, what can we do legally to keep in touch with the child then ? 
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 10:27
by   xpkoalz
Narrow-mindedness is thinking that we are sticking around to get some kind of benefit out of the child, 

Narrow-mindedness is not seeing that a bond between us and the child has been established, and trying to tear us apart. And it is only natural that we wants what is best for the child, including her education and her future.

Narrow-mindedness is depriving this child’s chance to get better education than her siblings, in the name of fairness. So you think if all her siblings gets killed, she should die too? To be fair? 
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 11:03
by   jeff005
edited Jan 1, 2018 at 06:28
 
There is no misunderstanding on my part.
It is you who do not understand what was written. "We" here are not wet behind the ears. We are even older than your father..!

Perhaps we here, should behave like some lawyers and can tell you there is 50/50 chance of getting visitational rights via court and let you all pay through your noses for nothing...!!

This is  NOT divorce child custody. Even our under Malaysian Syariah and Civil Laws, child 7 and below goes to mother. And how the mother chart the life of her children is  Nobody's business. She reserves her legal rights even to disallow her own father to visit the grandchild..!!

This child fate and future depends on the legal decisions make by her mother.  ALL or any of us reading now  have no legal say.

So you think if all her siblings gets killed, she should die too? 
Too harsh these words to be written here and it reflects the narrow-mindedness and the mental disability to to deal with childcare issues.

"So you think"
Do not put words into my mouth. Careful with what you write! 

In our minds, the ideal situation would be the child living happily with her family, and we get to visit her regularly and take her out for trips during school holidays. But if the mother is heartless, what can we do legally to keep in touch with the child? 
Those who were mentioned above have no  locus standi  to initiate any court proceedings based all the reasons mentioned above.
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 11:34
by   jeff005
edited Jan 1, 2018 at 06:31
 
In our minds, the ideal situation would be the child living happily with her family, and we get to visit her regularly and take her out for trips during school holidays. But even that the mother disapproves, what can we do legally to keep in touch with the child then ? 

This is  NOT  in the original  Pleadings. Twisting of story and words..!!

a Letter of Temporary Guardianship.  
This is legally required as the child is Malaysian and is living temporary in Singapore. No mention of any living expenses of child there also voided any claims.

Problem is that the mother is causing much distress to the child and to us by forcing the child to stay away from us, to not hug and say she love us and not to even mention our names. 
In a court of law, only the feelings a  Mother  is taken into account and the child is too young to make legal decisions.
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 14:22
by   xpkoalz
edited Jan 1, 2018 at 06:40
 
Hey jeff005

People write in here seeking help and advice. I was trying to state my situation in the best way I know how.

If you are going to be harsh and take my word out of context, it is you who shows immaturity.

You claim that you don't like to argue because life is too short. I think you have too much free time on your hands, giving your personal 2 cents worth without reading the issue properly. You lack empathy.

I have explained my situation here, and all you have to do was answer this... 

"This is  NOT  divorce child custody. Even our under Malaysian Syariah and Civil Laws, child 7 and below goes to mother. And how the mother chart the life of her children is  Nobody's business. She reserves her legal rights even to disallow her own father to visit the grandchild..!! 

This child fate and future depends on the legal decisions make by her mother.  ALL or any of us reading now  have no legal say. "

But you choose to insult and belittle me, saying we are narrow-minded? without considering how we feel currently - losing the child we cared for and loved for 6 years?
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 17:23
by   notalawyer
I know chances are slim, have written letters to law firms in Malaysia seeking advice, but got no response.
Firstly you should know that normally lawyers don't give an opinion without first collecting a deposit.
Secondly, you mentioned your chances are slim, there you go, you have already given yourself the answer you are seeking.
Anyhow, if you want my opinion, the answer is that you can sue and win if you have prove that the mother is mentally unstable. ( have doctor certificates etc )

It causes us pain and distress, that the mother has blatantly deny us of access to the child, physically and emotionally - after 6 years of loving and caring for her. An action which I find to be inhumane and cruel, devastating to the child and the grandparents.
The grandparents ought to have known from the beginning ( when they accepted the child ) that one day the parent will take back the child.

Problem is that the mother is causing much distress to the child and to us by forcing the child to stay away from us, to not hug and say she love us and not to even mention our names.
Perhaps there is more to this story than you are telling us, on why the mother is so hostile now.
Without this explanation, I see no reason why the grandparents cannot visit regularly.
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answered on Dec 23, 2017 at 18:34
by   jeff005
edited Dec 23, 2017 at 19:08
by   jeff005
People write in here seeking help and advice.
This is not help seeking and based on personal emotions, we are hearing from one side of the story. It is trespassing into the lives of another family of which the Mother  of the child is objecting to now.
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